Ep 2 - The Tragic Story of Jackie Bates Part 1

Episode Description

This week on Rooted in Crime, Lauryn and Nima uncover the heartbreaking story of Jackie Bates. During the 1930s amidst the challenges of the Great Depression, families in the Canadian Prairies faced unimaginable hardships. Many were driven to total desperation, including parents who could no longer provide for their loved ones. Follow the tragic journey of Ted and Rose Bates as they navigate the depths of despair, forever altering their lives and that of their 8-year-old son, Jackie.

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Special thanks to Lindsay Macdonald for recording and producing our intro and transition music.

Episode Transcript

Nima: [00:00:00] Rooted in Crime contains coarse language and mature themes such as violence and sexuality, which may not be suitable for some listeners. This episode in particular contains details regarding violence towards children. And an additional warning for this episode, we will also be discussing suicide.

Listener discretion is advised.

Lauryn: Welcome to Rooted in Crime. I'm your host, Lauryn Macdonald. And I'm Nima Haddoudi. And this is the podcast that uncovers the hidden stories of historical true crime through the lens of genealogy. Together, we're going to look at historical criminal cases from around the world, using a modern perspective to dig deep into the secrets of the past.

Before we get into this week's episode, we just wanted to quickly say thank you to everyone who's listened to our first episode about Angelina Napolitano. It's been so great to hear everyone's feedback, and we can't wait to keep bringing you listeners some exciting historical crime cases.

Nima: Yeah. Thank everyone [00:01:00] so much.

We saw the feedback was great, especially seeing that people were listening to both parts of the episode, which was fantastic. So sorry we made you guys wait an extra week for this one, but we're excited to dive right back into

Lauryn: it. Yeah. We kind of had to move, which I'm sure many of you know, takes up a lot of time and energy.

So thank you so much for your patience while we get this episode together. Yeah. Here we go. This week, we're looking at a truly heartbreaking case. On the morning of December 5th, 1933, a farmer just outside of Bigger Saskatchewan noticed a car parked strangely next to a shed on the Avalon schoolyard.

When he approached the car, inside he discovered a husband and wife in the backseat who were groggy and both badly cut. Between them, the lifeless body of their 8 year old son laid cold to the touch. The farmer called the police, who quickly arrived and took the parents to receive medical attention and take their statements.

The husband soon told police that he and his wife had decided to take their and their son's lives [00:02:00] in a murder suicide pact as a desperate last effort to escape their life of poverty and perceived shame. So how could two parents who were known to absolutely adore their son get to this point? Let's take a look at the tragic tale of Jackie Bates, killed by his parents Ted and Rose.

Albert Edward Bates, known as Ted, was born December 7, 1890 to working class parents Edward and Alice in London, England. I found on the 1911 census that he was working as a butcher in London shortly before moving to Canada. He immigrated in May of 1912 and headed to Ontario to work as a butcher, but actually ended up farming in Woodstock, Ontario, and attempted to find work in Buffalo, New York, in 1914, before moving to Saltcote, Saskatchewan, to continue working as [00:03:00] a farm labourer, per the 1916 Prairie Census.

He doesn't appear in either Canadian or British World War I personnel records, and he didn't actually serve in the First World War, which was listed on his 1914 National Register documents. Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC. Transcription Outsourcing, LLC. He later admitted that he ended up in Glidden sometime before 1919.

Glidden, about two and a half hours southwest of Saskatoon, was where he spent the majority of his adult life in Canada. I did find an entry record from May of 1922 that confirmed he went back to England to spend about five months with his mom in late 1921, and I wasn't able to find him on the 1921 census of Canada, so it seems like he was moving around at that time as well.

Overall, it does seem like he moved around pretty frequently looking for work in this period of his early adulthood, even returning to England, coming back to Canada. He was always looking to do something different, it seemed like, but this wasn't super abnormal for the time. [00:04:00] A lot of young men, especially those that were immigrants, did spend a fair bit of time in different cities looking for different types of work before they really settled down somewhere.

Right. Glidden was a growing farm town, with a rail line built in 1917, which allowed for homesteaders to come and populate the area. Like we've talked about in other episodes, we know that Canada in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was really pushing for a lot of immigration to settle more rural areas, especially western Canada.

And so with that, a lot of homesteading was taken up, where immigrants would begin to farm. And Ted was one of those immigrants. Wheat yields were very high during the 1920s, and prosperity was pretty rampant amongst the farming community. Internationally, wheat prices were very high, and Canada supplied over half of the global wheat market at the end of the 1920s, according to Stats Canada.

In 1931, Saskatchewan actually had the third highest provincial population in Canada, only behind Ontario and Quebec, with a population of [00:05:00] about 930, 000. Wow. That's crazy. Can you imagine that Saskatchewan is the 3rd most populous province? No. Like today. Oh. Oh. It ranks very low in comparison. It was only recently that the Saskatchewan population actually crossed a million.

It was in the 21st century that it crossed a million. Yeah, which

Nima: is crazy to think about considering it was 930, 000, did you just say? Yeah, that's, that's insane. Yeah, thinking about Saskatchewan even in like the top five. Is it in the top? No, it's not. No chance it's in the top five right now. So, I mean.

And it's not it's so big right zero density the actual

Lauryn: geographical footprint of saskatchewan is very large I don't know that exact number but looking at it on a map we can see just how physically large that province is and Overall, like you said it's it's not very populous like that density is quite low So there's a lot of very rural areas.

It's very much a farming community Or a farming [00:06:00] province then and it very much still is a farming province now

Nima: You know, it's funny that we say that too, even though we live in Alberta and I mean, it's not that different. We have like two or three big major cities and then the rest is. A lot of

Lauryn: farmland.

That's true. I mean it's true of all of the canadian prairie provinces that They follow similar densities where you have very dense urban centers And then as soon as you get out of those urban centers, it's very rural Yeah, which was even more extreme back in the 1920s and 30s where that urban center was even smaller than what it is now Yeah, that makes sense I think just talking about what that looks like for The population to be so high and then be so stagnant for so long really speaks to the success of those immigration and homesteading campaigns in the early 20th century.

That population really shot up quickly. About a third of the province's population were immigrants at the time of the 1931 census. And this doesn't include those children of immigrants that are considered natural born who were born in [00:07:00] Canada and are first generation Canadians. So, overall, the, like, net new Canadians at this point in time is very high.

Yeah. Ted's wife, Rose, was also one of those new Canadians. She came to Canada in 1924. She was born to working class parents Malachi and Alice Slatter on April 26, 1892, in Sussex, England. On the 1911 English census, I saw that she was listed as working as a domestic servant, but still living with her parents, so probably just went and was working as a day domestic for somebody and not actually living with them, clearly.

She was still living in Sussex in 1921 at the time of that census, however, actually seeing those census details were paywalled, and without an exorbitantly high monthly membership, I wouldn't be able to see those, so I passed on those details since we ultimately know what came to be of, of Rose. It's unclear exactly how Ted and Rose met, they never really spoke about it, [00:08:00] but he was the reason that she moved to Canada.

He was listed on her entry record for July 11th, 1924 as the reason why she was coming to Canada, to get married and live with Ted Bates. It's possible that they met when he was back in England in 1921 1922 visiting his mom, but we really don't know when they actually met and how their relationship came to be.

Right. The Marriage Index for Saskatchewan Records also isn't available online yet, so I'm not able to readily find information about the early days of their marriage, but presumably they married shortly after if she was coming to Canada for that explicit reason. Yeah, that makes sense. It wasn't long after that their son Edward Jack, or Jackie Bates, was born, on October 12th, 1925, in Glidden.

Community members told the Saskatoon Star Phoenix that Ted and Rose adored their son, and the community generally believed that the Bateses were loving parents. Ted first started farming out in Glidden, and later opened his own butcher shop in the town during these boom years, and he was very [00:09:00] successful and became well known and well liked in the community.

Per the Star Phoenix on December 7th, 1933, he was an incredibly jolly man who could brighten up any room. He was really loved by the people of Glidden. Rose, on the other hand, she was known to be more shy. She typically kept to herself and wasn't really involved in the women's groups in the community.

Some even described her as high strung and neurotic. Really her world was about her son and she didn't really go beyond that. Historian Bill Walser in 2009 published the article A Prairie Parable, The 1933 Bates Tragedy. And in this article he mentions the RCMP file on Rose included in her statements that she was actually pretty miserable in her marriage to Ted and wanted to get out of it.

She apparently regretted coming to Canada and started off on a really bad foot with Ted. Turns out he didn't meet her at the train station when she was coming in after her transatlantic voyage. Yikes. And upon [00:10:00] arrival, actually found out that he was living with another woman when she got to town. Oh, wow.

I don't know what the extent of this was, if it was some sort of border rent situation. Right. Fair enough, yeah. From what I was able to see briefly in Bill Wassler's article, it seems like it was some sort of romantic relationship. Perfect. But obviously not enough for them to call off the marriage because they still got married.

Wow, okay. But nonetheless, this is how things started off, and obviously it had a lasting effect on the nature of their relationship. Of course. He also apparently had a bad drinking habit, and when they would fight, Ted would often ignore Rose for long periods of time, hours, sometimes even days, and instead would go gamble with his friends in the back of the butcher shop.

Nima: Rude.

Lauryn: I think we can say that's a bit more than just rude. Well, it's at least rude. It's at least rude, but I think it's showing that there's a pattern of [00:11:00] him not having regard for her, taking her for granted. Oh yeah,

Nima: he's a dick. He's an absolute

Lauryn: dick. Oh, he's definitely a dick. Yeah. A way to describe

Nima: it. Yeah, got her across the border.

Good enough. Here we

Lauryn: go. And got her pregnant and had a baby with her right away. It's the

Nima: perfect

Lauryn: trap, right? All of this was eventually amplified at the start of the 1930s and at the beginning of the Great Depression. The prairies, especially Saskatchewan, were heavily devastated by the Great Depression.

International wheat prices bottomed out, and overall domestic spending dropped by 42% from 1929 to 1933. Yikes. So a period of four years. 42%. 42%. That's a lot. People really tightened their purse. Yeah, no one

Nima: was spending money.

Lauryn: Which isn't what we're seeing right now in our current economic situation.

Nima: No, and apparently we need it, but, you know, I don't want to get too deep into it.

But, you know, they're just going to keep raising those interest rates and maybe that'll tighten things up, so.

Lauryn: We'll have to [00:12:00] see. We'll see. Now, jumping back to the 1930s, we also saw in the early 30s the Dust Bowl. Take over the Canadian and American prairies the dust bowl was essentially these Devastatingly dry conditions where soil was incredibly loose and light and with the winds that would come through It would pick everything up and create basically this bowl of dust in the sky right to the point where These, you know, dirt storms were so brutal you couldn't even go and walk a few feet in front of you because it was so thick in the air.

Right. The soil quality was extremely poor. You couldn't farm. There was crazy dust storms everywhere. Like, think Interstellar. Those scenes from Interstellar, those are actually Dust Bowl scenes. Right. And those people that are being interviewed, those are actually Dust Bowl and Great Depression survivors.

They were children at the time of the Dust Bowl. So those are all of their memories. Wow. very much real accounts of what was happening in the prairies during these times. So we very much see this boom and bust cycle, [00:13:00] not just in Glidden, but across Saskatchewan, where these little towns that were previously very lucrative, very prosperous from primarily wheat farming, now there's Little to no demand because of the overall economic circumstances from the Great Depression across the globe.

But then to amplify things, we also have the Dust Bowl where whatever demand could be supplied, you can't even create that supply because the soil conditions, the farming conditions are so poor. Yeah, perfect storm. So with this we're seeing widespread crop failure and Saskatchewan's the only province at this time That saw its rural population fall as homesteaders ended up flocking to the cities in search of government support You were seeing the opposite in other provinces Where it was actually too expensive to be in cities and cheaper to be in rural areas So rural populations were increasing but Saskatchewan was the opposite because it was just So tough to actually be in those rural areas.

Yeah. Overall, spending across the [00:14:00] country is down and small town residents are having to seek government relief in these cities. And small businesses like Ted's Busher Shop were suffering heavily. Ted, like many others, allowed customers to purchase on credit and then wouldn't be able to collect from them later.

And that was for a variety of reasons. Quite often people would move. Yeah, like I mentioned, you know, you could pick up and move to Saskatoon or Regina or even go to another province and it's 1933 There's no way to track people down. So if you were gone, you weren't gonna be paying any of those debts, right?

This was happening where people that owed him money just were gone or if they were still there They just did not have the means to pay and he was falling pretty heavily into debt at this time It was reported in the Vancouver Sun that Ted couldn't stand to see people starve, and this really spoke to his jolly, caring character.

Yep. Now, the Canadian prairies have historically been more reliant on credit, which increased drastically during the Great Depression. And I think you [00:15:00] can say we still see this heavily today in the Canadian economy. Oh,

Nima: yeah, we do. And, I mean, I think we see it very heavily in the prairies still as well.

Yeah, like financial literacy is not the greatest here and, you know, we spend a lot of money. We spend more money than we make most of the

time

Lauryn: out here, so. And I mean, you see that every day. You work in finance specifically within Saskatchewan and Manitoba, so dealing directly with the Canadian prairies, you still see what those spending habits are looking like and what we saw then was that people were more reliant on credit and really not spending and trying to limit that spending.

Now what we're seeing is people are still very reliant on credit but not limiting that spending.

Nima: Yeah, people are still spending that money. It's,

Lauryn: it's very different to what we're seeing today, and the socioeconomic perceptions of poverty, of recession, of depression, are also very different at this time.

All of these socioeconomic changes [00:16:00] devastated the Bates family, and their butcher business essentially dropped off. In 1932, Rose wrote in a letter to her sister in law, Ted's sister Lily, that Ted had been considering burning down the shop for an insurance payout. At this point, Rose had also been considering suicide, and admitted to Lily, saying that, I have just got to end my life and Jax, because the man that I got is an utter bad.

Hmm. That's sad. I definitely feel for Rose. Mm hmm. It seems that she came to Canada under... False pretenses from what she's described in those letters and what she admitted to the RCMP. It doesn't seem like she was very comfortable in Glidden. She didn't really get involved with her community. And she has this husband who she's not happy with.

And in 1932 is saying to her sister in law, The best thing for me is to end my life and my son's life. So that on top of all of the financial despair that they're [00:17:00] suffering, the overall climate, you could say, of, of the country at this point in time is, is pretty heavy. And you can really get a sense of the desperate point that Rose is getting to.

Yeah, it's painful. Ted and Rose also couldn't agree on who would raise Jack if they were to separate. So they ultimately decided to stay together miserably for the sake of their son. Hmm. We know how well that often works. That's a horrible idea. With parents who... Can't get along, but I think it's a good idea to stay with their children.

Nima: Yeah, I mean, things happen, but at the end of the day, I think it's better if you're both happy, happier, separate to just try to keep a good co parenting relationship as much as you can and just have a good life for the kid, right? You brought that kid into the world. It's your responsibility at this point,

Lauryn: so.

Yeah, 1932 1933 we're talking about. There definitely are employment opportunities for women, [00:18:00] but typically it's single women that are Seeking those employment opportunities and ultimately being employed. You don't really see much for Middle aged women who are mothers and especially to be a single mother at that point in time.

There's a lot of Stigma and shame. Yeah, that comes with that. So her options are pretty limited Even if they were to separate what would she be able to do to provide for herself at this time, right?

Nima: Yeah, very different time for sure

Lauryn: Under these circumstances ted was able to sell the butcher shop. He sold it for 1, 400 And had almost eight thousand dollars in customer debt owed to him at the time of sale And for a bit of perspective on those numbers, today, that would amount to 31, 000 that he got from the sale and 176, 000 of customer debt owed to him.

Yikes, that's a lot. After selling the butcher shop, the family left Glidden in October of 1932, crossing the U. S. border into Idaho en route to [00:19:00] Vancouver with just 1, 000 in their possession. The family moved west in an attempt to open a grocery store in the growing urban center of Vancouver, which was, and arguably still is, a pretty ideal spot for struggling folks to go.

It's a much better climate, and especially at this time, fall 1932, just before the winter. Prairie winters are pretty bad, and when you don't have a lot of Resources to have to worry about, you know, feeding your family, heating your house. Those things are costly. Yeah, so to go somewhere with a more temperate climate makes a lot of sense.

It was also a lot cheaper than what it is now Comparatively when we look at inflation. Yeah We know vancouver today is one of the least affordable markets in canada Housing market, job market, it's, it's a pretty rough city, but at the time it was a much, much smaller city, quite small actually, really just growing at that point in time.

And so it was much easier to be able to set up and start anew there. For sure. His first shop in Vancouver failed, and [00:20:00] he ended up moving to two other areas of Vancouver to try establishing grocery shops. A December 9th, 1933 Vancouver Sun article credits both the overall economic state and the Bates lack of local retailing experience for their failure.

Which makes a lot of sense to me, it's a pretty difficult time, and to start up as a stranger somewhere new where people are going to have Protective ties to their community, especially during a time of struggle. That makes sense. Yeah. For sure. You need the roots there. Oh, absolutely. It was after the failure of the third store that the family actually went bankrupt in the fall of 1933.

The Bateses did everything possible to avoid turning to government relief. There was a very heavy stigma at the time for those who received government assistance. We obviously still see that stigma today, but it is much more normalized to be receiving. Some kind of benefit from the government. I mean, we see it all the time today with different tax benefits We all just got our our grocery [00:21:00] tax rebate Whatever that was so we we all are getting benefits in some way or another from the government in a very normalized way today Yeah, and these programs didn't exist at the time.

It was really From these times that these relief programs began. Yep. It was also very much a point of pride for Ted. You know, how could somebody who once had a very successful business now be in this position where he's just had three businesses fail in a very short period of time. Four, actually. Three in Vancouver, one in Saskatchewan.

And so going from a really prosperous life of, you know, being a successful breadwinner and providing for your family, now you can't even do that and you're having to turn to a government handout. That's definitely going to be something that hurts your pride. Yep. In June of 1933, Ted actually tried going back to Glidden to collect some of the outstanding customer debts that he was still owed, but was unsuccessful.

And he came back to Vancouver with absolutely nothing. It turns out Ted kept quiet about their financial situation in [00:22:00] Vancouver. One of Jackie's teachers there reported that the boy never mentioned any hardship at home, that he was always really well dressed, came to school supplied with pencils and paper.

She really had no idea that the family was struggling. It turns out it was only their landlord of their last store and apartment that knew the family's full extent of their circumstances. He reported this to the Vancouver Sun, and apparently Ted didn't talk about it, but the landlord could see that the family needed food, so he'd make sure that they had enough to get by.

He also reported that Ted kept his rent fully paid up until his bankruptcy when the family eventually moved out. In the fall of 1933, Ted tried applying to the city of Vancouver for relief. However, he didn't meet the residency requirements since he hadn't lived there for a full year yet. He was told to go to the province for relief and apply there.

However, provincial officials told them they needed to go back to Saskatchewan for assistance and only provided them a small amount of money for temporary support. At the end of November [00:23:00] 1933, the Bates family prepared to return to Saskatchewan, heading back to Glidden via Saskatoon by train. Tickets were provided by the Salvation Army through a provincial relief program.

It was pretty common to see provinces shift responsibility from one another at the time in, in terms of handing out relief. Essentially giving these small band aid solutions and passing that responsibility off for these transient or migrant residents. Mm hmm. So pretty much they were saying we don't want to have to spend more than we absolutely need to because Nobody's contributing to the tax base right now, right?

There's no income coming in for the province So how can they take care of people when they don't actually have any? Funds coming in to do so. So unless they absolutely have to provide for those people, they're not going to. And so things like residency requirements or certain income thresholds, certain family size requirements, all sorts of things were put in place to act as barriers to actually receiving that [00:24:00] assistance.

And so at this point we're seeing that the Bates family has tried going to a few different sources for this help and they're being turned away for technicalities essentially. Because of this, Ted was really still trying to keep up the charade that the family was not in extremely desperate circumstances, despite having pawned off nearly all of their belongings to pay for final expenses in Vancouver and to buy Jackie a heavier coat for the colder prairie winter.

Ted was telling associates that he was looking to buy another shop in Vancouver pretty much up until the time that the family left for Saskatoon, keeping up the charade, like I said. Ted's pride is essentially leaving his family in financial ruin here, and at this point Ted and Rose really feel that they have no other options to bring their family out of poverty and be able to care for their son.

So what do you think the Bates parents, specifically Ted, is thinking or are thinking as they're leaving Vancouver? I

Nima: mean... His pride and ego are probably [00:25:00] shot at this point. The guy went from owning three businesses and being successful to, I mean, losing it all and pawning it all off and kind of faking it the whole way too, so that must have hurt as well.

Not to mention how his wife probably feels and his poor kid now, so I could only imagine, you know, how he's feeling, right?

Lauryn: Well, that's the thing with, you know, Jackie. Does he really know what's going on when his dad's only shown that he's been successful and you know, even though they Don't have any money left.

Jackie's still coming to school with pens and pencils. He has the nicest clothes. They're buying him, you know, a nice new coat before they go off to Saskatchewan when they arguably can't afford it. Right. I did see that it was reported somewhere the Salvation Army had offered them a jacket and apparently they didn't want it.

I don't know if that's because it wasn't heavy enough and they didn't think it would be okay for him or if it just wasn't good enough for them, whatever good enough means. Yeah. [00:26:00] But from what I saw, I don't think Jackie really knew where his family was financially. Yeah, I

Nima: would imagine. How old is Jackie at that point?

He's 8 years

Lauryn: old at this point. Yeah, I don't think so. No. Yeah. They're doing a pretty good job at keeping it secret, and from the reporting that I saw, they were very loving parents that really tried to do everything that they could for their son. So I think to try to keep his world intact as much as possible makes a lot of sense.

Even when we know behind the scenes things are really falling apart for them.

Nima: Yeah, for sure. I'm sure he knew something was up, but probably not the depth of it, right?

Lauryn: So. Well, we'll find out in just a moment what the full depth of that is, but let's take a quick break. Let's do it. We'll be right back.

And we're back. We're back. We're back. And we're back to the story of the Bates family. Out of options in December of 1933 in Vancouver, the Bateses boarded the train to [00:27:00] Saskatoon on the morning of Friday, December 1st. The next train to Glidden was scheduled to arrive for Monday morning, so they had to spend the weekend in Saskatoon.

Here, the Bateses tried applying for relief to Saskatoon city officials and there's conflicting info on whether or not they actually received help. Some papers reported that, yes, they received hotel and meal accommodations for the weekend to help hold them over until they were able to get to Glidden.

Others reported no, no relief was given and the Bateses were treated very poorly by city officials, being told that they must move on to Glidden and they couldn't stay in the city. Wow. They did ultimately stay in the city, so to me it seems like they were able to get that relief. Right. But I think that misreporting probably came from hearing a...

When they were actually denied relief in other areas. Yeah. It was at this point while staying in the Saskatoon hotel that Ted and Rose came up with their murder suicide pact, seemingly feeling as though there were no other options for their family. Could you imagine getting to that [00:28:00] point? No.

Nima: I'm just thinking about that now, actually.

It's crazy to think about. Like, that's the point you get to? How you have a murder suicide pact? I, yeah, I, I don't, I can't even think about that.

Lauryn: Yeah, it's, it's one thing to decide that for yourself, but to make that decision for your entire family. Yeah, that's,

Nima: well, that's the part that really bothers me.

It's,

Lauryn: it's insane. Yeah, it's something that, especially in a modern perspective, we have a difficult time rationalizing. Yeah. I want to be very clear, in no way am I defending what they're plotting here. It's incredibly heinous. No, of

Nima: course, but I understand it was a very different time, so they're going through some stuff that we probably could never imagine.

Lauryn: No, it was an incredibly different social climate, economic climate. physical climate. Yeah. There, there were a lot of different things then that I don't think anybody today [00:29:00] could truly understand. So to really understand the point of despair that they're at, I don't know that somebody in a modern perspective could have.

Still, an incredibly heinous and disgusting thing to even think of. Agreed. But we'll see where that goes for them. Yeah. Rose later testified that Ted was the one to orchestrate this plan, claiming that he knew death by carbon monoxide poisoning was the easiest option for them. Over the weekend, they pawned the last of their belongings that they could to muster up enough cash to rent a car.

On Monday, December 4th, around 12. 15pm, once they were in Saskatoon, they rented a car from Allen's service station and purchased six gallons of gasoline, figuring this would be a sufficient amount for their plan. They told the owner of the service station that they were from out west and they were interested in buying a nearby property and that they needed to rent the car for the day to go take a look.

They drove west from the city, heading for Bigger, which was about an [00:30:00] hour away from Saskatoon and a sufficiently rural area. Rose testified that she wanted to go ahead with the murder suicide plan as soon as they left Saskatoon, but Ted said they needed to wait until dark. When they were about eight miles from Bigger, they turned onto a different road heading north and came across a schoolhouse.

Neighbors near the schoolhouse reported seeing the car turn into the school lot and park for a while before leaving during the afternoon. Figuring they were just lost and finding their way back. The Bateses left the schoolhouse and went to have dinner at the home of John Lee, who lived nearby around 6 p.

m. I couldn't find exactly why they went to his house. I'm not sure if the family knew him, or perhaps he ran some kind of boarding house where people were traveling through and could stop for a meal. It kind of seemed that way from what I read in papers. That was pretty common at the time to have, you know, kind of like a bed and breakfast type, you know, hotel lodging establishment with like a restaurant or some, some kind of eat in.

[00:31:00] Like a bed and breakfast. Like a proper bed and breakfast. Basically a bed and breakfast. Yeah, basically. I'm describing a bed and breakfast. That's basically what it was. And it was pretty common to just, you know, have those on most rural highways every however many kilometers and you can just go there for the evening, no questions asked, right?

So they stopped there to have dinner and also purchased an additional gallon of gasoline from Lee since Ted was worried that they wouldn't have enough otherwise to be successful in their plan. After leaving Lee's, they headed back towards the schoolhouse and started having issues with the car's clutch, so they decided to stop at the schoolhouse, figuring this would be the best site for their murder suicide plot.

With darkness upon them, Ted parked the car next to the shed on the schoolyard for the fumes to collect against. Then he and Rose prepared the backseat of the car as a bed for Jackie and them to lay down on, telling the boy that they were going to sleep there for the night. Jackie then curled up in the backseat with his mother and was reading Mickey Mouse comics before going to sleep.

So, just before going to bed, reading Mickey Mouse, and Ted went to start the [00:32:00] engine of the car. The three of them laid down in the back seat and closed their eyes for what Ted and Rose thought would be their final sleep. Okay. A few hours later though, Ted awoke to Rose shutting off the motor and crying out that Jackie was dead.

No way.

Nima: So. How long after, sorry?

Lauryn: Ted figured it had been a few hours. He actually testified later that it took him a couple hours after that point to get moving and really come to. So it's a little unclear exactly what the timeline was. But it was enough time for fumes to be able to collect and for Jackie to inhale enough to be killed.

But not enough for Ted and Rose to be killed. Yeah. They were disoriented quite significantly by these fumes. Like I said, Ted testified that it took him several hours to get moving and be able to go again. Rose was able to obviously turn off the [00:33:00] engine, so she had, she seemed to have more strength than Ted.

But nonetheless, they were somewhat incapacitated by the fumes. Once Ted was able to get going again, Rose asked him to stab her in the heart just to end it all. Ted actually tried hitting her over the head first with the engine crank to render her unconscious so that she wouldn't feel the pain of him stabbing her.

But he was unsuccessful in stabbing her. He later testified that he couldn't bear to actually stab her between the physical weakness from the fumes and the emotional duress that he was under. So he instead slit Rose's throat and wrists with a blade before slashing his own wrists in attempt for them to bleed out.

Wow. It was while they were bleeding that they both became unconscious and waited for their deaths, essentially. Hmm. It was a few hours after that point that they were found by farmer Archie Evanoff, and Ted and Rose were barely conscious in the backseat when he found them. Evanoff called police, who took the parents off for medical treatment, while the coroner took Jackie's lifeless body away [00:34:00] for an autopsy.

Rose was taken to hospital due to the extent of her injuries on her throat, but Ted was alright and he was able to go to the police station for questioning. Both Ted and Rose made similar statements, explaining the details of their plot, and that they chose to do this to avoid the inevitable shame that they would receive by returning to Glidden, in addition to not being able to provide for their son.

In my personal opinion, it does seem like death was on the table for both Ted and Rose for some time before they actually... Came to build this murder suicide plot together. Okay. And with these attitudes that we've seen towards orphanhood and adoption, it made sense to kill their son alongside with them, rather than put him through the additional shame of losing his parents to suicide and growing up without them.

Mm hmm. So, not only did they think that the only option for them was suicide, was to no longer exist, Because of the way [00:35:00] society felt towards suicide, orphanhood, adoption, poverty, all of these things. This is what got them to the decision of our best option is to kill ourselves and our son. Yeah. Crazy.

That's pretty crazy from a modern perspective. Yeah. I think a lot of people also at the time, would feel similarly, that they wouldn't be able to actually get themselves to that point where not only could they kill themselves, but also their child. Yeah. I really wish we could have had more raw conversations from this point in time, raw interviews.

Mm hmm. What I was seeing in, in newspapers, you know, those little quotes that you'll get from neighbors or community members, They're really just a couple sentences here or there. I don't think you really get the full understanding of [00:36:00] what the community feels, what society feels towards the murder suicide plot.

We will see in a little bit what Glidden feels, but beyond that I wish we got a better understanding of society's general attitudes towards suicide at the time. Yeah. In reaction to the story, you know? Right, yep. After police received statements from both parents, Ted and Rose Bates were charged with the murder of their 8 year old son, Jackie, on December 6, 1933.

The news made the front page of the Star Phoenix the morning of the 6th, with the headline reading, Child dead in alleged suicide pact. Glidden parents face charges of murdering boy. The news spread quickly throughout Western Canada, and in the coming days reports including opinions and observations from friends and neighbors made the papers.

There was widespread shock in the community that Ted and Rose were capable of murdering their son since they were known to be incredibly loving and doting parents. This was said by people that knew them both in Saskatchewan and in British Columbia. Many spoke [00:37:00] out and said that they would have done anything to help the family if only they had asked or if only they had knew what the family was going through.

With many citing Ted's generosity of selling to them on credit while he had the butcher shop as their reason for wanting to help out. Right. So clearly there was some reciprocity. Yeah. Right?

Nima: That just speaks a lot to the societal pressure and, you know, the pride that comes with it and not being able to ask for that help.

Lauryn: Yeah, and also I think the pride of being able to offer it very easily, you know Of course, I'd do this for my neighbor. I do anything to help them. I care about them Do not take it but exactly to take it when we know Ted is a man who is incredibly proud When he isn't doing well financially still will spend money to be able to look like he's doing well So I don't know that Even if that help had been offered, it would have been received.

Mm hmm.

Nima: Yeah, exactly. I would [00:38:00] agree with

Lauryn: that. Especially if they're at the point of thinking that their only option is this murder suicide plot, would they have been in a position to want to receive that help? I don't think so. Yeah,

Nima: that's very different.

Lauryn: The fact that Ted and Rose Bates murdered their son in an attempt to take their own lives, too, ultimately didn't sway the support of the town of Glidden.

Council later voted to take responsibility for Jackie's body after the coroner's examination and raised funds to pay for his funeral, which took place one week after his death. He was buried in Madison Cemetery, which is located just east of Glidden. He was originally buried without a gravestone, just a blank concrete slab marker.

But a more modern looking gravestone has been added in recent years I was able to see a picture of it on findagrave. com Cool, and it's actually a pretty beautiful, grave marker. Nice. I read that originally It was because his parents couldn't afford the headstone that he didn't have one Which I don't know if that's true because [00:39:00] the town paid for his funeral, right?

So Perhaps they didn't have the funds to pay for a proper

Nima: gravestone. That's possible. They said funeral. Yay, but gravestone nay I don't know.

Lauryn: I think it's more likely that Because of the nature of how he died and they were ashamed. Yeah because of that association with his parents Who were still living?

Yeah when he was dead. Yeah, I think that's probably why he didn't yeah, that's very possible ultimately. Yeah But one was added more recently. I don't know when. I couldn't find that online. Right. But his memory hasn't been forgotten. For sure. Thankfully. In addition to the funds that the town of Glidden raised for Jackie's funeral, they also raised a defense fund for Ted and Rose, which paid for their lawyer, Harry Ludgate.

A resolution was passed in council that formally blamed the economic circumstances of the Great Depression and the federal government's lack of responsibility in relief programs for the tragedy. So people at the time, although we're not getting their... direct Quotes on what they think and feel about the [00:40:00] situation Generally, the sentiment is such that The bates family was not responsible Yeah, ultimately for the murder of their son.

Yeah,

Nima: I mean they had a little gofundme for them, right?

Lauryn: I mean, I don't know if I'd pass it off as a gofundme. I think ultimately, it speaks to the neglect that A lot of rural communities are feeling from the government. Yeah that they're only really able to take care of their own And they can only rely on each other.

Yep and so I think based on the bates's original position in the community of glidden being people at least ted being somebody that was recognized as Supporting the community and being you know a cornerstone business in the community To me it makes sense that In the 1930s, people would want to defend that, and would want to assume the best, that he really had to be in such tragic circumstances, and [00:41:00] he went to the sources that he thought he could for help, the government, and ultimately was turned away.

Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. So I can, I can... To a very limited point, understand that kind of like us versus them mentality and that protectiveness of the Goode's family. A few days after Jackie's burial on December 14th, the coroner's inquest began in Baker. Coroner's inquests are pretty standard practices across Canada, both, you 1930s and today, where essentially a trial like proceeding is held where the Circumstances of the death are investigated and these are for unexpected or unexplained deaths.

So those with, you know, mysterious circumstances, if somebody died in a way that they weren't supposed to die, you know. Whether it's accident, intentional, that sort of thing. So these are overseen by a judge with determinations made by a jury. Interesting. [00:42:00] So not to find blame in... You know if it wasn't accidental who caused a death But just like what happened what actually caused the death here.

Yeah So, in these proceedings, typically the coroner's autopsy findings are reviewed, as well as other evidence like witness testimony and forensic evidence to determine the cause of death. So, like I said, coroner's inquests are not meant to find guilt or fault. They're purely to determine what caused the death and how it happened.

Okay. So, direct cause and then basically, like, sequence of events that led up to that cause of death. Jackie's coroner inquest included more testimony than typically what we would see today. Today there's a much greater reliance on forensic evidence in most coroner's inquests. Right. What I've been able to quickly read online and in pretty light research.

But at the time, obviously, forensic science was, I don't even know if it was in its infancy, maybe it was in the womb, we could say. Yeah, that's fair. It was, it was, [00:43:00] Pretty light. Yeah. So, at that point, it's witness testimony and medically whatever we can find from the autopsy. Mm hmm. The Bates family lawyer, Harry Ludgate, actually tried to argue that the Bates statements shouldn't be admissible due to the conditions that they were in when they gave their statements, especially Rose.

Hmm. Okay. Saying that they weren't physically and mentally fit at that point to give those statements. I guess I understand that. that they were admissible. And the couple was of sound mind when they gave those statements. Okay. Provincial pathologist, Dr. Frances McGill, who conducted Jackie's post mortem exam, testified that the amount of carbon monoxide needed to kill an 8 year old is significantly less than that needed to kill an adult.

And there was ample evidence to show that gas poisoning was certainly Jackie's cause of death. She said that it was evident that the, quote, muscles, viscera, lungs, brain, and blood had been affected by the gas, and that his blood was a bright [00:44:00] cherry red color. Blood tests confirmed that the levels of carbon monoxide in Jackie's blood were sufficient to cause death.

After two days of inquest proceedings, the six man jury came to the following verdict. We, the jury, find that Jack Bates came to his death on the night of December 4th, 1933, by carbon monoxide poisoning while in a car in charge of his mother and father. And this was reported by the Star Phoenix on December 15th, 1933.

That's the direct quote that was read by the jury. Okay. So like I said, not saying Ted and Bates are guilty of murdering their son. Just, it was carbon monoxide poisoning that did in fact kill Jack while with his parents. Right. While in the care of his parents. Yeah. So with the proceedings from the coroner's inquest now over, the preliminary hearing was held later that day at Biggar, where after hearing pretty similar witness and expert testimony that was heard [00:45:00] at the coroner's inquest, it was determined that the Bateses would stand trial for the murder of their son.

The trial was set for March 20th, 1934 in Wilkie, Saskatchewan. Ted was then taken to Prince Albert Jail following the hearing, while Rose was continuing to recover in hospital for a few days before she headed to Battleford Women's Prison. So we now know they're going to stand trial, and it ultimately was the carbon monoxide poisoning that killed Jackie.

Yep. So heading into this, what are you thinking, Nima? I mean...

Nima: They need to be held accountable. That's, that's all I can really think about in that situation. Like it's a really tough situation, but you know, they're alive. They're going to have to deal with that for the rest of their lives anyway. So, I mean, I wouldn't want them to go through an extremely harsh sentence by any means, but they still need to be held accountable.

Right. They, they, unfortunately they did end up murdering an eight year old. So.

Lauryn: Their eight year old, their own eight year old.

Nima: Absolutely. [00:46:00] Even worse. Right. So we'll see how it

Lauryn: goes. Yeah, it, like I said, I think speaks to not just their own desperation, but really society's understanding of desperation at the time.

Mm-hmm. , shame and honor play into this a lot. Pride, big time.

Nima: Yeah. That ego, right? Like, you know, it's a big thing for me, I always tell you is to, to put your ego aside and. These were the times where ego was so big, right? Like, and when you don't put it aside you lash out. And this is how you lash out.

So.

Lauryn: It's, it's a tough story to go through. Especially when, you know, we're just having this conversation of, at this point, really facts. We've had our own personal opinions kind of peppered through. But really, I've just been going through the facts of the case and... You know, who they were beforehand, that, that background context.

And it's not easy to sit here and do that and talk about a kid being murdered by his parents. While also trying to [00:47:00] understand what the historical context was for them to be driven to that point. Yeah. It's especially important as a historian, as a historian to have that perspective. But it's, it's really hard to have that sympathy.

I, I don't know if it's because I'm a woman, but I do feel some sympathy for Rose. Yeah. I think from what I was seeing in different newspaper reports and then also in Bill Walser's research, it does seem that she was taken advantage of. Mm hmm. You know, women were not treated like they, they are

Nima: today.

No. And in those times for sure, you know.

Lauryn: So I think knowing, you know, what women generally were going through in times like that. Plus, the overall despair of, you know, their family business failing, their town's economy is completely shutting down, their province's economy is shutting down, there's, you know, sometimes where [00:48:00] they don't even have enough food and it's a landlord that's bringing them food, you know?

So I can only imagine, at that point, how helpless Rose is feeling. She's not in a position to really do anything to change that financial circumstance for their family and she's put all this trust into Ted to do this for them. And we see where his pride is taking him. We know he likes to drink and gamble too.

It wasn't really reported what the extent of that was during these times when they were going back and forth between, you know, like Saskatoon and Vancouver and Glidden and still I just have a hard time having that much sympathy for them. Yeah. Despite the sympathy that they're getting from their community.

Yeah.

Nima: Yeah, no. I, I, I agree. I mean, I feel like, I don't know though, right? It's again, it's hard to put myself in their shoes, but it's, I feel like there were other ways out for sure. One is literally opening up and talking to their neighbors and, you know, trying to figure [00:49:00] out. Other ways to get some help and I'm sure they could have gotten out of this in a different way because I'm sure there were People around them that were going through the same things So and they probably dealt with it very differently.

Lauryn: So Yeah, and you know from what I've heard from my own family members who lived through the Great Depression in Canada My great grandmother. She was a child, you know similar just a few years older than Jackie was at the time right similar in age and I know her family really relied on their extended family to kind of come together collectively and get through those really hard times.

Yeah, that was, you know, helping with food, childcare, clothing, whatever that may be. And I don't know that they could have turned to people that were not family, just based on what I know about. My family members and their personalities and who they were as people. Yeah, fair. So it's those, those little things that I try to kind of have in my mind when we hear about these stories of, [00:50:00] you know, a lot of struggle and tragedy.

But I don't think we can truly understand what people were going through at that time. No, no. And, and just like you said, when you're going through those things, even if you don't think people understand, quite often there are. And it is important to talk about it. And so with that, we are actually going to wrap up this episode here and leave you guys on a little bit of a cliffhanger with the Bates family.

We're gonna save that for our next episode in a couple of weeks. But before we end it off, just because of the nature of this episode, we do have a few resources for you listeners. For those struggling with thoughts of suicide or for loved ones who may be in

Nima: Canada, you can call Talk Suicide, Canada at 1-833-456-FOUR 5 6 6 in the United States, 9 8 8.

Suicide and Crisis Lifeline call or text nine eighty eight.

Lauryn: And that's it for [00:51:00] part one of the Tragedy of Jackie Bates. There

Nima: it is.

Lauryn: Ah. It's it's a lot. It's a lot to get through. It's a sad one. It's a sad one. Yeah. Yeah, and It'll be interesting to talk about what the outcome is. I think we've chatted a lot about some pretty interesting Context to see what will unfold when we get to their trial in the spring of 1934.

Nima: Yeah I'm very curious to see how it turns

Lauryn: out. Well, we'll just have to wait until next week. Sounds good. Can't wait In the meantime, thank you so much to everyone who's been listening to us. Like we said at the beginning, we really appreciate all of your support. We could not be doing this without you listeners, so thank you.

100%.

Nima: Thank you guys so much.

Lauryn: And if you like what you're hearing, we would really appreciate it if you follow the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, depending on what platform you're listening on, if you feel so compelled to review us, giving us a five star review really helps [00:52:00] to bring some notice to the podcast, help other people find the podcast.

And of course, we like to get honest feedback from you folks, so definitely keep that coming our way so we can listen and improve our show.

Nima: Yeah, just a click of a button. We'd really appreciate it

Lauryn: guys. So with that, you can find us on Instagram at RootedinCrime, and you can also get in touch with us by sending us an email at RootedinCrime at gmail.

com. We also have our Patreon, patreon. com slash RootedinCrime, where you can find some bonus and behind the scenes content, including extra unreleased episodes, mini episodes, extra graphics. There's a lot of cool things on Patreon for you listeners. I'd also like to give a special shout out to Lindsay Macdonald for recording and producing our intro music.

Well,

Nima: thanks for joining us, guys, and we'll see you next time. See you then.[00:53:00]

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